Music and pop culture

You might need a little idea of what these people are talking about. The music revolution that these people are talking about was really started by a few people who kept on wanting to e-mail bomb stations like MTV and radio stations to play more actual music...My personal opinion is that you really can't change a whole country of people, and even if you could, it would be still be the same way it is now, and they would not be listening to the music for the right reasons, and I pretty much totally agree with what this first guy posted.

dmattrape
What's i don't understand is all you kids' obsession w/ the "REVOLUTION." I mean what is your big cause--that everyone else like what you like? Someday you'll learn that who your are is more important than what you like. Go read "High Fidelity" and save yourself about 20 years. I could understand if there were some polltical import to what you're chasing. But to me all this Britney-bashing seems aimless and juvenile. I mean does it REALLY hurt you if some 12yroldgirl like pop. Most people don't develop a serious music habit, anway. For the large majority of people music is background--something minor that you spend maybe 3 hours a week listening to. The average radio listener/MTV viewer tunes in for 15 minutes a day. That's it. I guess what I'm saying is that pop doesn't mean that much to most people.
Do you really want everyone to be in on what you like? It only makes it harder and more expensive to go to concerts. Do you want to deal w/ train jumpers and poseurs? C'mon.
I understand that it's difficult to feel disenfranchized, like you don't have a voice in the culture at large. If you do feel that way, go after that--look for a voice. There are BIGGER things than popular culture--more important causes. Pop at it's best amplifies the vox collective as it asserts itself. however, you need to speak about something. Do you think that the Beatles and the Who and Dylan and Hendrix et al. were simply concerned with a "rock revolution?" They were talking about human rights, about the right of a people to stop the crimes of their government. Do you think that Joe Strummer and Johnny Rotten were simply trying to make rock big again? Do you think that Cobain and Vedder and Corgan were only concerned with their own musical careers? If you do, go listen again--you missed the point.
Find a cause. Hold a rally. Plant a tree. Give all your money away. Walk out the door. Go play outside. Feed the poor. Stop the death penalty. Vote Green. Do something.
It's bigger than what you're saying. Don't get sucked into this idea that youth culture and entertainment is all there is. If you do, you'll be 22 and a hasbeen.

Decadence
It's not that we want people to like what we like. It's that we are watching one of the most beautiful forms of expression made into a money making scheme where only the prettiest people whom they deem fit get any sort of real chance or pampering from the companies. And let's be honest, everything aside, it's pretty challow music and the singers like brittany are just puppets, plain and simple.

dmattrape
I admit it's crap. It's crass, comercial drivel made for all the wrong reasons. But, there are some out there that would say the same thing about the Pumpkins. You can't divorce pop from commerce. Rock and pop as we know them exist because very poor british kids that grew up eating war rations needed a way out of the slums. (WWII rationing was in place in britain until 1956!) Pop and rock as we know it is the product of the british commercial art schools. All of the British Invasion artists were sent to the arts schools because they didn't fit in anywhere else (the british welfare state at this time had an educational system that determined where you could go to school). In these schools they were shown how to do backwards tape experiment and how to smoke pot. This is where today's rock and pop came from--from socialist schools looking to turn art into commerce, and it did. So don't whine when art makes money-->it makes you sound like the weenie undergrads who were pissed that dylan plugged in.

shot full of diamonds
I think you're forgetting the fact that all music is commerce to a certain degree, at least on the level of buying CDs and making videos and stuff like that. Everytime you buy a CD, regardless of what style of music it is, you are paying you're money to support the very cause that you are pretending to be against. Music is a privelidge, not a basic need. And if you want to keep listening to new music at all, i'm affraid you've got no choice but to put up with brtnny and let tyhe execs get their cash flow.

dmtrape
I've got an idea. Instead of trying to remove cash from the music biz. Why don't you try to find out why your peers are killing each other. There's a cause. What is fucking well-off suburban kids up so much that they snap and go on a rampage? There's a revolution that needs tending to.

shot full of diamonds
I'll tell you what fucks them up! It's alienation, it everyone who woudn't lift an empathic finger to save their own lives! It's the slowly growing belief that they will be alienated and austricised and tortured fore being different for the rest of their lives! It's the belief that death is the only refuge! In other words, it's people like you who just pass them off as freaks and refuse to even stop for a moment to consider the bigger picture! Sure maybe they are psycho, but no psycho ever acts without being pushed!
Sure it's a tragedy, but the real tragety is that it will no doubt happen again, and you fucks still won't get the message!

Decadence
Yes all music is commercial to a degree, it needs money to support itself. But the companies are foregoing what is credible and true art for that purpose only. There may be people that like brittany but the fact is that the companies just don't give real bands/artists much of a chance. They're simply not interested in what is meaningful if it doesn't make them money and that is what we are against. We only want to show people out there that brittany is not the be all, end all of music, there is so much more to it and all other forms of art. With things such as brittany protests, you may not agree with them, but noone said you had too, one persons thoughts on how to deal with it doesn't reflect everyone elses, but whether or not we choose the same plan of action is not the point, it is just whether or not we do. Have a look at the following links and have a think.

dmattrape
You can't force a conversion on people. Are you going to hand out smallpox blankets to teeny-boppers and then tell them that rock is their only salvation? Has it ever occured to you that people will grow out of this commercial pop. The screaming girls at the height of beatle-mania were the same ones marching in the streets in 1968. (I know the Beatles were "different," but the whole art v. commerce issue was something the Beatles themselves were concerned with. You can't deny that the fab four were a marketing force the likes of which no one has ever seen before or since.). Don't you think that someone could grow up and have their tastes change. When I was 13 Van Halen was my very favorite band in the whole world. Needless to say, I grew out of them. Hell, I'm 22 and my tastes shift daily. Some days I think punk is the best thing ever; other days I'm singing the praises of lo-fi psychadelic pop. I have my simon and garfunkel best of right next to my copy of Mechanical Animals and that right near Wilco's Summerteeth and Weezer's Pinkerton. I go see small indie shows and huge stadium gigs. What I'm saying is that tastes shift. The way you feel now is different than how you'll feel later. Don't make an ass of yourself. Let it be.

AnimaMvndi
Why don't you ask yourself why you listen to music. If your intelligent, and it seems that you are, then you probably have a deeper meaning of listen to music then because its 'cool'. Does it mean anything to you? If it does then do you enjoy seeing it raped and abused? Do you enjoy little girls being brain washed that they are all supposed to look like Britney? Every video she puts out shows more and more flesh. Did you ever stop and think who pop is directed to? Well a recent survey in a Florida News Paper showed that most kids that listen to pop are under 13 AND that younger and younger kids are listening to music every year. Now we are all effected by music, I bet all of us has been influenced by the pumpkins music otherwise we wouldn't be here. But what about the 13 year olds? The future of America. Look at what the past 2 years all the 13-14 year olds have been influenced by: Britney, Christina, Limp Bizket etc. Its all brain distorting bullshit. Maybe thats why a lot of kids in Americas Society feel like shit and don't have anything to turn to. Sure their parents should be there, but music also helps a lot, what if there is no music to help?
And if you complexly disagree and completely prove me wrong then you can not fight your own argument. What is the revolution? A bunch of nonsense you say? Well at least all these Pumpkin fans are following a bunch of 'nonsense' and not going around shooting their classmates. At least they are bashing the (and you have to agree with me on this) Fake, Plastic, Doll Faced, Talentless, Money Hungry Pop Stars and their 'brilliant' taste in music with their business executives behind their backs and not 'bashing' their peers.
Its a fact that you can't deny, if your involved in something like this revolution you won't be killing other people. Because this bashing of pop stars isn't caused by emptiness, it isn't caused by hate or being alone. Its about PASSION! Passion towards the thing we love the most, and thats music.
Honestly you don't have to agree with the revolution. I won't put you down because you arn't on my side. I actually think you ARE on my side, your just not as radical :-). I totally see your point of view and maybe in a few years I'll say 'Man was I lame or what! Believing in some revolution that never happened.' or maybe i'll be a part of the revolution, a part of something beautiful! Music has made some of us happy, some of us sad, it pumped us up before a sporting event. And most of all like any true art form it caused us to look at the world differently. Don't you think (I know this will sound tremendously corny) its time for us to give back to music? I know Billy does. Just read the lyrics to BLUE SKIES BRING TEARS, or look at the webpage with all messages. Right now, I am ready to follow the REVOLUTION.

shot full of diamonds
I'm not saying that pop music sucks, or that it's not raping art. All I'm saying is that you can't have it both ways. If you want to continue to listen to the kind of music that you enjoy, you're just gonna hafta let all that other stuff be. If the industry goes broke, the ENTIRE industry goes broke, not just pop.

~MushroomBlue_girly
I don't know why you compare us to 12 year old wanna be britney spears trl worshippers...i think you your self is being judgemental over something you don't understand...we are just doing big posts on how we like the smashing pumpkins(and they are rock hun )...and how dare you tell people what they are going to do and what they aren't? I love music... and you can't tell me that i can't be in love with music...i consider music that is artistic like poetry, and many people take poetry to heart..and if you are going to be shallow like that and judge us and poke at us well just to let you know you are missing out on something that is amazing and if all you can do is sit at a computer and tells what we like is "wrong" well, then i feel sorry for you...

AnimaMvndi
Who said we want the entire industry to go broke? Of course the music industry sucks now, but were not saying to get rid of it! Remember the days there was intelligent popular music on mtv? Yes everything on MTV is pop. Yes, The Beatles, Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath etc. were all 'commercial' because they sold albums. I am not going against that!!!! But look what your comparing! All the earlier bands actually knew how to make/write music, most todays pop is full of puppets! We are not debatting the 'meaning ' of commercial music or popular music! We are discusing the fact that 99% of todays 'popular' music is fake/crap! We havnt seen a good, new 'pop' band in the past 2 years!

dmattrape
A line by line response--> "Does it mean anything to you? If it does then do you enjoy seeing it raped and abused?"
The marriage of art and commerce is a sticky problem, especially with an inherently pop form like rock and roll. I totally support artists rights. I buy directly from bands and small labels when I can. I do not use Napster except to download live bootlegs (the band already made the money from the ticket) and other songs that the band would see no $$ for anyway (i.e. Machina II, out of print 7" records). I think more high-profile artists should challenge the standard industry procedures and/or start indie labels to give freedom and fair contracts to upandcomers. But, the music biz was run by swindlers early on, so it's a longstanding problem w/ no quick fix.
"Do you enjoy little girls being brain washed that they are all supposed to look like Britney? Every video she puts out shows more and more flesh." The misrepresentation of young women's self-images began way before Britney. This is a problem bigger than POP music. If this is your concern, focus your attention on this problem directly. You might do more good than backwardsly approaching the subject by denouncing corporate teen party music.
"But what about the 13 year olds? The future of America. Look at what the past 2 years all the 13-14 year olds have been influenced by: Britney, Christina, Limp Bizket etc. Its all brain distorting bullshit. Maybe thats why a lot of kids in Americas Society feel like shit and don't have anything to turn to."
To say that what you like when you are 13-14 dictates who you will become later is to totally remove growth from the equation. People grow up. If someone had given me the Velvet Underground when I was 13, I wouldn't have known what to do with it. People have to develop before they can understand high concept art. Give the kids a break, they'll be listening to Venus in Furs soon enough.
"Maybe thats why a lot of kids in Americas Society feel like shit and don't have anything to turn to. Sure their parents should be there, but music also helps a lot, what if there is no music to help? And if you complexly disagree and completely prove me wrong then you can not fight your own argument. What is the revolution? A bunch of nonsense you say? Well at least all these Pumpkin fans are following a bunch of 'nonsense' and not going around shooting their classmates."
I believe the "us against them" devisivness of all this revolution talk simply promotes a culture of opositional behavior. This generates a atmosphere where every slight seems so important, so much the part of a "movement" that it's worth killing for. Think about it. It's not that big of a leap from protesting a Britney Spears or Limp Bizkit concert to waging physical warefare on the "enemy."
"Because this bashing of pop stars isn't caused by emptiness, it isn't caused by hate or being alone. Its about PASSION! Passion towards the thing we love the most, and thats music. "
Are you sure that some people aren't projecting this "PASSION" onto the music becasue they feel empty and alone. Maybe some people feel threatened by the "in-crowd" becasue they are alone and scared. Nerd psychology 101. "I actually think you ARE on my side, your just not as radical :-)." I believe in revolution. A revolution of hearts and minds. Spiritual and philosophical transformation. Transcendance. Constant becoming and actualization. Now who's radical.

AnimaMvndi
MAN YOUR GOOD! Arguably your as good as my Philosophy/Psychology teacher combined! They always have some solid counter argument. By the way I take both subjects, and love them to death! I haven?t had them for a whole year yet. Your really good at this, you even have historical background to back it up! Are you some sort of lawyer? Your right in all your points. But you won?t persuade me, and I don?t think you?ll persuade anyone else who has joined the ?revolution?. Personally I doubt that it was your aim in the first place! I completely see your side of the story.
I view today?s pop as WRONG period. I told you why I feel it is wrong. My interest isn?t woman?s rights but music. The degradation of woman in music is just a factor. Yes, I know kids will grow up and your right again. I would never nor am I trying to promote violence against anyone! Not even pop stars! That?s what I am fighting against! Finally, your right about kids listening to music because they are alone and scared. That?s how I got interested in music. I was a nerd, maybe I am still a nerd inside! I don?t think nor care if I am because I found acceptance with myself. And that was 4 years ago. But what if the music wasn?t there for me? I think about what you said about your idea of revolution is beautiful and I agree with you more than you think.
What do you think caused all those kids to kill? Honestly, I want to hear your opinion. I think it has to do with today?s society, the warship of materialism and the loss of sense of pain. And of course the parents neglect combined with the accessibility to guns.

rain
This has to be one of the best debates to go back and forth on this message board in a long time...I was into that revolution stuff...I still think it is possible. But I think the act of trying to force action to happen is only going to fuck things up even more in the long run. Back in the early days of grunge there wern't kids on message boards screaming "we need a revolution...this crap music has got to go"...it just happend. The evolutional cycle of music took another turn and up popped this new form of expression that gave the kids and outlet to release there anger and anguish. Today's kids have nothing like this...they experience anger and isolation and they have no escape...they turn to music but music tells them that everything is ok and you should look pretty or sexy.
However...everything is not ok...kids are killing each other in seemingly unexplainable numbers and styles. Maybe this new sick 10PM news statistic relates a little bit back to the pop culutre telling the children that everything is ok. Rock is true, it arises and feeds off the notion that everything isn't ok, and it is possible to over come that. I admit, when I was younger I had different tastes...hell I liked Mc Hammer...but I evolved...my first real taste of art and meaningful music came when I first heard mellon collie when I was in 6th grade...I was alone and was having a really shitty time...the music gave me an escape...
It's like that song "thats when I reach for my revolver" by Misson of Burma..."Once I had my heros...once I had my dreams...thats when I reach for my revolver" I feel sorry for the generation that is growing up without heros...and if they do have a hero it is Mrs. Spears or Eminem. Society has created this culture where kids are only seen as profit boosting tools. And the kids are losing what it is to be a kid. I think our society has become so fucked up it is about to implode...
You say you want a revolution...but what the hell does that mean? You want rock to become mainstream again? You want another messiah like kurt cobain to crush all the pop shit...you want another kurt cobain to kill himself under the presure...don't forget what you are asking for here...would you be willing to give up the tallent of some one like say Billy Corgan for your so called revolution?
There are many questions you must ask yourself...many of which don't have answers...the revolution will come when society isn't ready...and if it doesn't come...then the hole will just get deeper and deeper until everything is empty...

dmattrape
I am not saying that no one should like the smashing pumpkins. i am not saying that music shouldn't make your hair stand on end and give you the fits. i'm not saying that you shouldn't jump around like an idiot when the rock gods move you. i do all these things and more. and becasue of this i don't want to force great music up the pop charts. we don't need what we like to be popular to enjoy it. and thus this revolution business seems like something we're doing for ourselves because we want to feel important--the biggest kid on the block. true appreaciation (as well as true humanity) requires that we are willing to take risks and stand out. To say yes when everyone else says no. we don't need to be pretentious and domineering. we can be peaceful and spend our time enjoying and creating and if everyone else catches on so much the better. if you know you're doing the right thing, then that should be good enough.

shot full of diamonds
I'm not saying you can't love music! I love music! I'm just saying that in order for music to exist AT ALL, all forms of music must be present. Even the ones we don't like as much.

shot full of diamonds
One thing I will credit to the "revolutionaries" is that you do bring the valid point of the value message being sent to the youth. But this is a battle of image, not music. If you take this into consideration, sure, britney is hurting the youth, but it has nothing to do with music. music is an art form(sometimes a shallow art form, but art nonetheless) If you ask me, what we should be doing is educating people on how to read the media. To understand that the music is only a small fraction of what you are being sold when you buy a record.

Profane Pumpkin
um, that's all good and all, but the purpose of life is to enjoy it. I don't like the crap they play on radio and mtv, and I think it's wrong the way they market it, and they don't give many artists the recognition they deserve, so I want to start ENJOYING the radio and mtv. I want the coin to land in our favor. I'll just leave it at that for now because I'm sure you'll flame me for that.

This goes on...but I'm out of time, and this is taking some time to put up here.